对话拼多多黄峥：他们建帝国、争地盘，我要错位竞争（《财经》专访）

They Build Empires and Fight for Territory; I Compete Where They Don't (Caijing interview)

> By Colin Huang · 2018-04-04 · [Original link](https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/8am3JgMxrzl3pjeASymzeg) (Chinese)
> Only Colin Huang's own answers; lines marked (Q) summarize the question and are not the interviewer's wording.
> Our translation from the Chinese original.

On Tencent

**(Q)** Is Pinduoduo a protégé Tencent is backing against Alibaba?

Tencent backing us? Where does that show?

**(Q)** Pinduoduo survives with tactics WeChat bans; is that Tencent's tacit consent?

I don't think Tencent has backed Pinduoduo; we've been blocked many times too.

**(Q)** What's this about being blocked by WeChat 1000 times?

1000 times is an exaggeration. Didi, Alibaba and JD have also been blocked many times. I can't say we've done the best, but we're certainly not the worst either. In fact, from the angle of platform governance, Pinduoduo, as the organization with the largest transaction volume in the Tencent ecosystem, is controlled by WeChat more strictly.

WeChat's policies keep changing. First, a lot of the time you don't know unless you try; second, we think some practices don't bring much harm to consumers. For example, in scenarios like delivery-arrival notifications, if you don't mention the user's name, mistakes happen. The core is to see whether it crosses the line for the user.

**(Q)** Did you exploit loopholes in WeChat's rules?

If someone thinks we rose by exploiting the rules, he can see how it works too, so why can't he rise?

**(Q)** You deny Tencent gave you more support?

Does Pinduoduo have any privilege on WeChat? For example, the Weixuan that Mogujie and JD run in WeChat's entry point is something we have absolutely no way of doing. Before the New Year, Tencent had us sign a mutual non-poaching agreement: if we want to poach Tencent's people, we can only do it with Tencent's consent. Could Tencent demand the same thing of Toutiao?

Recently something made me feel very wronged. Suddenly a flood of rumors poured out saying Pinduoduo was a scam, and the rumors spread widely through WeChat groups. I went to WeChat for help and was refused; WeChat said if it were Alibaba asking, it could handle it. I can understand, because if WeChat stood up and helped me deal with the rumors, the public would say it's because Tencent is our shareholder. If WeChat helps Alibaba refute rumors, that's called having a big vision.

**(Q)** This isn't a big deal for Tencent?

Because if I die Tencent won't die; Tencent has thousands upon thousands of sons.

**(Q)** Is moving users from WeChat to the app undermining Tencent?

We didn't force the app; it's more the users' own choice. Pinduoduo may be the only e-commerce app that doesn't force users to enter a phone number when logging in; you can log in directly through WeChat. Orders from our app now already far exceed 50%.

Creating a sharing scenario on WeChat was an important reason for Pinduoduo's early rise. Early on we had no data, so on WeChat we came to understand people through people: what characteristics you and your friends have. But WeChat isn't the only or the ultimate scenario. Once we fully understand users, I can leave WeChat and create new scenarios through the platform too, using machines in place of "friends" to make judgments and push users the most suitable goods. What you see now is merely Pinduoduo's initial stage.

**(Q)** Is Pinduoduo a product of the game between Alibaba and Tencent?

Toutiao isn't; why can't we be another kind of existence?

**(Q)** Pinduoduo matters strategically to Tencent; will Tencent back you against Alibaba?

I don't think Tencent runs on a logic of hard competition; Tencent runs more on a merchant's logic, and competition is just a by-product of commercial ROI calculation. Tencent took a stake in Pinduoduo not because we can fight Alibaba but because its investment in us has returns. Tencent invested in JD; can JD really fight Alibaba? Alibaba would fight any JD, even without Tencent's investment.

**(Q)** How does the Alibaba-Tencent fight in retail affect you?

Alibaba and Tencent can't yet be said to be competing, because both sides' share of offline retail is very low. Most of today's internet competition is grabbing traffic. Actually, when you set traffic aside and focus on scenarios, you'll find the space is very large.

**(Q)** What kind of e-commerce ecosystem does Tencent want to build?

I don't think he has a clear purpose, just as Tencent investing in Didi doesn't mean this is a mobility ecosystem.

**(Q)** Is viewing Tencent only through ROI underestimating it?

What's wrong with doing business with a merchant's logic? Ren Zhengfei said in an interview: what is a strong China? He said we grind tofu, they grow bean sprouts, and added together that's a strong China.

**(Q)** Without Tencent's stake, would there be today's Pinduoduo?

The logic should be: because we are today's Pinduoduo, Tencent wanted to come in and take a stake. Tencent is more like an ordinary financial investor; it will be neither especially good to us nor especially bad. And I don't think we're part of the Tencent camp.

**(Q)** Your office is full of QQ dolls?

They were all gifts from other people; not many were sent by Tencent.

On the doubts

**(Q)** How do you turn the tactics of group buying and low prices into a strategy?

I once told Tencent people that Tencent failed at e-commerce because they understood e-commerce as traffic × conversion rate = GMV. The traffic logic can't succeed today. Tencent has the largest traffic in all of China and invested in a pile of vertical e-commerce companies; if this logic worked, Tencent would have succeeded long ago.

After Pinduoduo rose, JD, Vipshop and Mogujie all experimented with similar models. For them, group buying is merely a tool for creating incremental GMV, while Pinduoduo is the logic of people: through group buying we understand people, through people we recommend things, and later it will transition to machines recommending things. The Pinduoduo app has almost no search and no shopping cart. You can imagine replacing the information feed in Jinri Toutiao with a feed of goods, and that's Pinduoduo.

So early on, everyone looked like low prices and group buying, but our starting points were different and our directions were different, so when we grew up we were different too.

**(Q)** You succeeded by capturing the lower-tier population?

Only people inside Beijing's Fifth Ring Road would call this a lower-tier population. What we focus on is China's broadest mass of ordinary people, which is similar to the reason Kuaishou and Toutiao grew. It's like if you went to Shenzhen 30 years ago, you could make money doing anything, not for any other reason, just because you picked the right direction.

**(Q)** Low prices only attract price-sensitive users?

What we attract is people who pursue high value for money. He'll buy a Hermès bag, and he'll also spend 9.9 yuan on a box of mangoes; this has nothing to do with his spending power. Only traditional companies divide people into tier-one, tier-two, tier-three. What Pinduoduo satisfies is the many sides of one person. It's just that we still do it very badly, and don't yet have the ability to satisfy 100% people like you inside the Fifth Ring Road.

**(Q)** Many people see low prices, poor quality and lots of complaints?

We also sell the iphone x; low prices are just our way of acquiring users at this stage. Pinduoduo has a deeper understanding of value for money than most platforms, namely always going beyond the consumer's expectations. Our core isn't "cheap", but satisfying the feeling in users' hearts of getting a bargain.

For example, Pinduoduo's first product was Lay's potato chips at one yuan a bag, and we sold ten thousand in one day. As long as half the chips are still edible, he'll feel it was worth it. But conversely, even though it's only one yuan, if the chips arrive all crushed, the consumer will feel he didn't get a bargain, and may even curse you.

**(Q)** Taobao says counterfeits are moving to Pinduoduo; is that true?

From a science-and-engineering angle, I find this report very laughable. I don't think he can know this; on what basis could he know this?

**(Q)** Could 4.72 million orders of a 27.8-yuan virility drug be real?

First, medicines or health supplements sold on the Pinduoduo platform will certainly carry the state certification mark. Second, the gross margin on health supplements is outrageously high to begin with, just like face masks. Do you think a 200-yuan face mask works?

**(Q)** How do you ensure quality and repeat purchases at extremely low cost?

I admit Pinduoduo's control over goods as a whole and the quality of its service are now very rudimentary. We are improving product quality by upgrading the supply chain and cracking down on counterfeits. There may be no platform in all of China working harder than us at fighting counterfeits. In the past year our repurchase rate doubled, and the average order value rose from a dozen-odd yuan early on to forty or fifty yuan.

Besides meeting people's basic material needs, we've also done a great deal of product design and operations to meet consumer needs at people's different spiritual levels, such as impulse spending, rational spending and venting spending. This is also why, facing homogeneous competition, Pinduoduo can still attract consumers to keep coming back.

**(Q)** Do you meet spiritual needs only with lucky draws and red packets?

Lucky draws and grabbing red packets are the simplest entertainment behaviors. This approach is very lame, but we really are trying to merge consumption and entertainment.

**(Q)** Is Pinduoduo consumption downgrade?

Consumption upgrade isn't letting people in Shanghai live the life of people in Paris, but letting people in Anqing, Anhui have kitchen paper to use and good fruit to eat.

On core competitiveness

**(Q)** When will management problems erupt all at once?

Running a company doesn't have an obvious adolescence like a child's. Adolescence clearly speeds up at the start and clearly slows down at the end. But a company is a process of gradually growing up. This means problems don't erupt suddenly; problems erupt every day.

The biggest problem now is that system capability can't keep up with the growth in scale. Taobao has already established the basic rules of platform governance, such as the merchant credit system, and we can learn from these. But there are some areas it hasn't done well yet, such as the logistics of agricultural products, and these we need to explore ourselves.

**(Q)** The thorniest management problem right now?

How to reduce human intervention in the rules. Having people select and recommend goods inevitably leads to corruption. In our first year of business an operations staffer was sent to prison for corruption, and at the time I also dismissed one third of the operations staff. In the future Pinduoduo will go from manual product selection to selection entirely by algorithms and machines.

**(Q)** Will you do warehousing and logistics and become asset-heavy?

We won't do purchasing and selling ourselves, and won't touch logistics and delivery. Alibaba already does it very well, so why would you do it? Many companies do everything because they don't trust others.

**(Q)** This year's strategic focus?

Supply-chain upgrading will be our strategic focus for a long time. Pinduoduo's ultimate model is to enable the upstream to do batch customized production, but our investment in the upstream and our empowerment of the whole industrial chain are both too weak right now.

**(Q)** Operations are judged only on GMV; how do you balance the long term?

Our assessment is retention and repurchase first, GMV second. In fact, we don't want growth right now; I hope to bring the GMV growth rate down.

**(Q)** But you've placed a lot of ads.

Placing ads is to tell consumers I'm not a con man.

**(Q)** Staff see the company as still traffic-first; why the disconnect?

These staff were originally educated for many years in an environment of traffic thinking. The company is only a little over two years old, and unifying thinking between me and the staff hasn't been done very well yet, but we're trying to carry it through from top to bottom. Right now I'm at this end, the whole of society and the media are at the traffic end, and the staff may be in the middle.

**(Q)** How long can the traffic dividend last?

The people of all China should be our users. I think the next 2, 3 years will all be high-speed growth.

**(Q)** Do you spend money buying traffic now?

Compared with Toutiao it's certainly much, much smaller.

**(Q)** How do you build a business model on 9.9 yuan with free shipping?

Alibaba has already made this model work thoroughly; it comes down to nothing more than advertising and commissions, but right now we only take the payment processing fee.

**(Q)** Expanding into all categories means facing brand upgrading?

Expanding into all categories is still the traditional traffic logic, and so is upgrading; upgrading is a perspective of people inside the Fifth Ring Road looking down. I don't think Pinduoduo needs brand upgrading or needs all categories; that's wrong. What we want to do is always matching: letting the right person buy the right thing in the right scenario.

**(Q)** What inborn weaknesses does a company that grows on the broadest population have?

First, you will go through a great many storms of public opinion; second, a company like ours is bound to bear more social responsibility; our reach is even wider than Toutiao's.

The recent rumors about Pinduoduo being a scam made me very anxious. If I were WeChat, or a state department, what should I do? Many entrepreneurs come out and do PR themselves, which is a self-sacrificing approach. Can our new generation of entrepreneurs do without this approach? Entrepreneurs will grow old in the end, but a company has to keep living; it should depend on a mechanism with its own ability to respond rather than on one person.

**(Q)** What are the mission and values?

The mission is more value and more fun: letting consumers buy more things of better value, and be happier in the process. The value is benfen (本分). [Translator's note: 本分, roughly "doing one's proper duty", is kept in pinyin; the mission phrase 多实惠多乐趣 plays on the name 拼多多.]

**(Q)** If your value is benfen, why were you blocked by WeChat 1000 times?

Benfen is what you should do in your position. We want consumers to do more marketing activities; for a commercial organization, that is its benfen. The rest is more a question of how to judge the boundaries of marketing reach.

**(Q)** What is Pinduoduo's core competitiveness?

I think JD's core is that courier companies can't do e-commerce, and e-commerce companies don't want to do courier delivery. Our core is that people inside the Fifth Ring Road can't understand us.

On competition

**(Q)** Can you knock out 40% of Taobao's order volume?

We and Taobao are in misaligned competition, competing for different scenarios of the same group of users. Only by being misaligned will we grow faster, so there's no such thing as knocking out however many of Taobao's orders. Just as when Facebook grew, Google would fight Facebook, but in the long run the two coexist; Facebook's rapid growth didn't affect Google's growth, because these are two completely different scenarios.

**(Q)** Wang Xing (王兴) says competition isn't for knocking someone down.

What Wang Xing talks about is the boundary of his empire, moving toward each other, but he didn't say where he'd stop. Didi and Meituan grew up in an environment of hard competition, but Pinduoduo's growth environment is different. We found a new commercial breakthrough in a saturated field that seemed to have no opportunities, so we don't need to waste huge resources on excessive competition.

Alibaba and JD, Didi and Meituan: theirs is imperial competition, with clear boundaries of territory. But I think our generation's thinking shouldn't be like that. Pinduoduo and Taobao are more like two different dimensions [Translator's note: the original writes 纬度, "latitude", a common miswriting of 维度, "dimension"] slowly merging; Pinduoduo uses Alipay and also uses Cainiao.

**(Q)** Taobao launched a special-price version to counter you.

We take this as a kind of praise for us.

**(Q)** Alibaba sees Pinduoduo as just a low-spec Juhuasuan?

I've never studied Juhuasuan. We don't want to be a second Alibaba; Pinduoduo's existence is itself a model, and we are in the early stage of pioneering this model. You can say I'm low, say I'm rudimentary, but you can't ignore me.

**(Q)** Taobao also does "a thousand faces for a thousand people"; where is your uniqueness?

Pinduoduo's and Taobao's models are fundamentally different. Taobao is the traffic logic; its main body is search, and users have to find goods themselves, so it needs a massive number of SKUs to meet long-tail demand. Pinduoduo represents matching: recommending goods to consumers, with limited SKUs, but needing to satisfy structural richness.

Taobao has always advocated C2B but couldn't make it work, precisely because Taobao's thousand faces for a thousand people is equivalent to personalized search, but search itself is long-tail, so it's hard for you to do reverse customization. Pinduoduo, by contrast, concentrates massive traffic into limited goods, and once there's scale, does reverse customization, thereby greatly lowering costs. This is also the difference between Walmart and costco; Pinduoduo's ultimate positioning is to make different costcos for different groups of people.

**(Q)** Taobao's search traffic is already under half; are you underestimating your rival?

Taobao's direction is right. But as one of the most successful companies of the previous stage, when it strides into a new era, it has baggage. Their main body now is search, and whatever reform you do means you're weakening search. But search in Pinduoduo is only a tiny scenario, not even on the home page. It's like Baidu wanting to do what Jinri Toutiao does; they all face obstacles brought by their existing success.

It's like I'm Shenzhen and it's Shanghai. Shanghai was once far more badass than Shenzhen, and it may still be badass, but I'm young, I have no baggage.

**(Q)** Will Pinduoduo meet all the problems Taobao met?

In some respects our challenges are smaller than its. For this we have to thank Alibaba for its enormous contribution to China's e-commerce industry over the previous ten years: courier delivery, payment, the infrastructure of e-commerce; we have all benefited from Alibaba.

**(Q)** What problems will you meet that Taobao won't?

First, the doubts you face as a latecomer. It's like a table of people eating: when Taobao first rose, the table was empty, but when Pinduoduo rose, there were already 5 people at the table. You're under the table insisting on getting up to eat, but the people at the table don't want you to come up, and the people under the table don't want you to go up either, so I'm bound to take a double blow. Second, because we grew too fast, in a short time we'll face all the problems Taobao had to face over ten years.

**(Q)** Why not start another table?

In China's market-competition environment, the tables everywhere are full.

I like Singapore very much, and I've also studied it deeply. Singapore itself is very like a company: it achieved national prosperity in a very poor surrounding environment. Moreover, because it's small, it created a model: the assets held in the country itself are only a very small part of its whole, and most of its assets are spread across China and the United States. Singapore is a small country, yet it's also an existence merged into all the other big countries.

Even if you're very capable and you manage to build a small Alibaba, so what? From the angle of making your presence felt, the world won't remember you for it.

**(Q)** Replace Alibaba, and people will remember you.

Even so, Alibaba was still the first to make Alibaba.

**(Q)** Could you accept investment from Alibaba?

That may be restricted by the terms of investment.

**(Q)** Why refuse to talk with Meituan; will you do services e-commerce?

It's not that I don't talk with them; I don't run in circles, and I don't want to talk with other people. Pinduoduo doesn't currently plan to do services e-commerce, because physical-goods e-commerce is already big enough.

**(Q)** You could push movie tickets later, as Toutiao went from text-and-images to video?

Services e-commerce is traffic thinking, that is, pouring traffic in and using different services to consume that traffic. If we still use a traffic-based view to do things in the post-traffic era, we'll certainly die.

Pinduoduo appeared precisely because it doesn't use the old thinking. Under people-first thinking, you should first think about what this person needs. What we want to do is merge material consumption and spiritual consumption. Spiritual consumption isn't only doing services e-commerce, but using entertainment so that users get happiness on top of consuming.

**(Q)** Will Toutiao do a feed of goods?

If it does, let it; can you stop others from doing your thing? But your hypothesis is equivalent to Baidu back then wanting to do Taobao.

**(Q)** Will Toutiao and Pinduoduo enter the same track?

Jack Ma (马云), many years ago in an internal speech, said: why don't we keep a competitor around? He said the best structure is Intel and AMD. This society should have multiple species existing and then merging with each other.

On personal growth

**(Q)** Rumor says you're Duan Yongping's (段永平) godson?

I was introduced to Duan Yongping by Ding Lei (丁磊). When I was studying at Zhejiang University, one day a stranger added me on MSN, saying he was Ding Lei and was researching a technical problem; at the time I thought he was a con man. In 2002 I went to the US for graduate school and got to know Duan Yongping, and after graduating, while working at Google, I lived very close to his home, so I started helping him with some investing.

**(Q)** Why did your angel investors invest in you?

Maybe because I don't flatter people, and I said some somewhat interesting things. At the time I was chatting with Wang Wei (王卫), and I said you certainly won't succeed at e-commerce; have you ever seen a courier company succeed at e-commerce?

**(Q)** Did Wang Wei believe it?

He doesn't admit he can't succeed [Translator's note: the original reads 他不认他做不成; 认 may be a slip for 认为, which would give "he doesn't think he can't succeed"]. So what to do?

**(Q)** What inspiration did Duan Yongping give you?

He said fast is slow, and slow is fast. He said doing things with an ordinary heart works better. He said that in fact it's very hard for ordinary people to have an ordinary heart. As for him personally, he's someone who keeps improving; he's learning too, and reading your articles too.

**(Q)** Sun Tongyu's (孙彤宇) biggest help to you?

One is values; he's a very good person. The other is that his understanding of platforms really is different. Very few people in China have built platforms, and that has been helpful. For example, he thinks a platform should consider more the evolution of the ecosystem at different stages, while a brand is more a value proposition by which a single niche group stands out as unconventional.

**(Q)** What did the 2006 meal with Buffett mean to you?

What Buffett says is actually especially simple, words even my mother can understand. The greatest significance of this meal for me may be that it made me realize the power of simplicity and common sense,

People's thinking is very easily polluted. When you make a judgment about something, you need to understand the background and the facts, and after understanding them what you need is not wisdom, but whether, facing the facts, you still have the courage to judge with reason and with common sense. Common sense is obvious and easy to understand, but our various prejudices formed through growing up and learning, and the demands of personal interest, blind us.

Duan Yongping also taught me a piece of business common sense: price fluctuates around value. Price will certainly fluctuate, but as long as your value rises, in the end price will come close to value. This common sense lets you settle down to increasing the company's intrinsic value, and not care too much about price fluctuations in the capital market.

**(Q)** Facing an unknown field, how do you learn about it and judge it?

Usually I take a fairly primitive approach: go and experience and feel it myself. Most people over think. In fact most things are obvious and there's nothing to think about; you just need to judge with common sense.

**(Q)** How do you learn fields like logistics and finance?

Why do I need to understand them? Most knowledge is useless; when you meet a problem, then solve the problem. As Duan Yongping taught me: have no great ambitions; just do the present well.

I also don't plan five or ten years ahead. I think of a very distant goal and a very near implementation. It's like falling in love: is the person you end up finding the one you planned? Can you decide who the next girl you meet will be?

**(Q)** Falling in love and setting strategy are the same thing?

In essence they're the same; running a company is also a journey. If a guy is very career-minded, running a company is very like falling in love, because you'll fall in love with your company.

**(Q)** Staff say you basically don't manage the business and rarely hold meetings.

You have to think one thing through clearly: are you really that capable?

**(Q)** What is the CEO's benfen?

I'm not a CEO in the typical sense. I one, am responsible for inputting values and culture into the company and setting life ideals for the staff [Translator's note: the original reads 我一负责, apparently a slip for 我一是负责, "first, I am responsible", matching the 二是, "second", that follows]. Two, I handle the problems that suddenly pop up, that we've never met before, and that no one knows whom to assign to.

**(Q)** Staff say your word is final; do you think most people are stupid?

That's very different from how I see myself. In my mind, the great majority of people are better than me in the great majority of respects; I'm only better than very few people in very few respects.

**(Q)** In which respects are you better?

The ability to shut out external pressure and return to rational thinking from first principles. Sometimes a bit of an ability to think contrarily. When I did secondary-market investing before, I found I seem by nature not inclined to be fearful when many people are fearful, and inclined to be pessimistic when the public is enthusiastic.

**(Q)** What have you thought about most recently?

Lately I've been thinking: the value for money of material consumption is easy to measure, but how do you measure the value for money of spiritual consumption? I haven't figured this out yet.

**(Q)** Your biggest regret growing up?

From childhood on I was always first in my school, too clearly goal-oriented, and wasted too much time chasing first place and working hard to be a good student. I woke up to this fairly late.

**(Q)** Starting a company again after financial freedom, how is the drive different?

To put it in plain words, running this company is more about making my presence felt. You make something that others think is pretty badass, a bit different, and they may even respect you a little.

When Jobs returned to Apple, he made an ad that said: you can praise him, you can insult him, you can say anything about him, but there's one thing you can't do, which is that you can't ignore him.

**(Q)** Why care about presence?

Because you don't pursue money and you don't lack money, so what else can you pursue?

Some people pursue being the most respected company, but most respected is very hard to measure; some pursue being the biggest company or the most profitable company, which is easy to measure, but pursuing those two things is especially frightening. The best enterprise should be incomparable: you're unique, so others have no way to compare with you on equal terms.

**(Q)** Besides Pinduoduo, what would you most like to do?

I hope in the future to transform into a researcher in the true sense. There's a very good model here, Benjamin Franklin, printed on the hundred-dollar bill: after 40 he no longer took part in business, took part in research and invented the lightning rod. I think non-profit, wholehearted research work would make a greater contribution to humanity.

**(Q)** Why did you first do e-commerce outsourcing and a games company?

The reason I'm still doing things that make money is that I haven't yet evolved to the point where I can do things that make no money at all. In the future I hope I can do research that makes no money, but doing business and not making money, I think, is immoral; one should follow the logic of business and be a merchant who keeps to his benfen.

**(Q)** An investor says you have no ambition.

In terms of running a company, if you're born a mouse, you shouldn't have the ambition to become an elephant, because that would kill the mouse; if you're born an elephant and you say your ambition is small and you only want to be a mouse, then the elephant will be raised to death. It's hard to say whether I have ambition or not. Ambition is determined by what you can do and will do (your genes).

**(Q)** Why not disclose your valuation?

If everyone else is lying and you tell the truth, the truth is actually the same as a lie. When I first started the company and went to raise money, the company was in very good shape, but investors took the truth I told as lies. Whatever number you report, they'll mark it down to 80% by industry standards, or even to 50% [Translator's note: the original says 打八折 and 打五折, "80% of the price" and "50% of the price" in Chinese discount terms]. Later, when Pinduoduo had a bit of a name and I went to raise money, the funny thing was that if you told lies, the other side also took them as true.

It's like when I was little, my dad bought a real watch and everyone said it was fake; later when I had money, my dad wore a fake watch and they all said it was real. That's how this world is.

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